美国政要第23课
Transforming Defense
--Interview with the Chairman of the National Defense Panel，Philip A. Odeen 访国防小组委员会主席菲利普•奥迪恩
MR.CHEN BOJIANG: Recently, I have read some documents1 on future warfare and the national defense development of the United States from Defenselink2 （on the web）.One of the most impressive documents I read was a national defense panelist3 report titled ”Transforming Defense-National Security in the 21st century.” I am very interested in interviewing its authors. And as the Chairman of the National Defense Panel，I feel honored to have the opportunity to interview you today.
“Transforming Defense-National Security in the 21st century” focused on the long term issues facing U.S. defense and national security. Obviously this ”transformation” could not take place over night. How long do you think it will take for this ”transformation” to be complete? Will there be several stages in this ”transformation” that you can currently identify?
MR.PHILIP A.ODEEN:I think the transformation will take 15 years, 20 years, a long time. Because the equipment has to change, and the cycle for designing and building new equipment is very long, and we also have lots of modern equipment, and it's too expensive to replace it all, so you have to replace it gradually over time. So it will take many years. And some of today's equipment will still be very useful, but some of it will have to be replaced in that timeframe4.
Secondly, it requires the military to come up with new concepts for operations, for using forces. And this is something you don't invent. You have to think about them. You have to experiment. You have to do exercises. And that takes many years as well.
And finally, the people have to think differently, so it will take time for new generations of leaders to emerge and move up in the structure, and for today's leaders to retire and leave. So it's hard for somebody that's a general officer today to think about doing things in a very different way. He wants to do things the way we've done them in the past, so you'll have to change some equipment, you have to change the concept, but also change the people.
So, I think it will take 15 years, perhaps 20 years for it to be complete. Now you will see change gradually over time, and the American forces have changed quite significantly over the last 10 years, really, since, say, before the Wall5 came down, before Desert Storm, before the Iraq situation, and today.
There have been many changes in terms of smart weapons6 and big improvements in communications and the use of computers. These army experiments at Fort Irwin7 last year, brought new ways to use telecommunications and information technology, so there are changes all the time, but I think in 15 or 20 years there will be more basic changes.
Army structure will change. Army divisions will go away and some kind of new smaller units will emerge. But it will be a long time. There will be brigades, or regiments8, or something, yes; smaller units. And probably more joint--There will be joint units. There will be combined Air Force and Army units, or Marine and Army units.
MR. CHEN: According to the analysis of this report, the transformation aimed at meeting all the U.S. security needs in 2020, covers all aspects of national defense. In your opinion, what is the most important aspect of the transformation? What are some of the difficulties one is likely to come across in this transformation process?
MR. ODEEN: Probably the most difficult one is the personnel--the human part of it, getting people to think differently, and getting people to think about different ways to use forces, different ways to operate, different tactics, and so on. As that changes, they will find ways to use today's weapons in different ways, but also they will be willing to accept the fact that new weapons and different kind of weapons will have to emerge. And probably the biggest change will be continued improvement in information, information technology access. So the intelligence information from the various sensors9 could make it rapidly available to the people flying airplanes，or tanks, or the people firing weapons. So you can take advantage of that information and immediately use it, as opposed to today, where the information is collected, and it goes to the headquarters, and the people analyze it and study it, and then eventually it gets to the troops, and it takes hours to go. This will be very quick. It will be real time10 .I think the biggest obstacle is for people to think differently and act differently, and other things will happen.
MR. CHEN: Implementing a transformation like that described in the report is expected to be complicated and will require a delicate11 balance between near term challenges and long-term challenges. What do you think about this balance? Or in other words, what do you think is the best way to deal with the near term and long term challenges?
MR. ODEEN: That's a very good question. The difficulty the U.S. military has in investing in new technologies and new thinking is that they're so involved in current operations. I mean, there's the force in Bosnia. They have small groups of people in Africa and elsewhere. We have a lot of forces right now in the Middle East because of the Iraq issue on the inspection12 team.
And there's so much--that takes money and energy, and it's delaying investments that would be important, useful investments, that could be made now that should be made now to begin to develop the new technologies for the future. So it's taking longer than we had expected.
And there's a concern also about--in thinking about the future there's still a lot of focus to the Middle East, to the Iraq situation still a lot of concern about Korea and the very unstable situation in North Korea, which I'm sure you people follow very closely as well, where there are various serious economic problems, and food shortages and a very large military, maybe some leadership issues there with the new leadership.
So it's difficult for the American military not to pay most of its attention to those two areas, plus the Bosnia situation is very unstable. And so they are distracted13 guess in a way, and their resources, their money, their budgets14, their time are focused on these near-term issues, rather than the long term. So that's the major issue I think. That's a very good question.
MR.CHEN:I noticed that the report used some classic quotes15 which included a quote by a famous ancient Chinese military thinker Sun Tzu. What do you see as the relationship between historical versus16 modern military thought，and foreign versus U.S. military thought?
MR. ODEEN: I'm not a military historian, but among my friends, Sun Tzu is quoted very often. I mean, sort of the basic principles and ideas he enumerated17 are still very current today I think. There's a very basic sort of thing.
I think many American military thinkers have studied the older history. In fact, at West Point18, the military academy19, they study military history, and they study other pasts like the Civil War20.They go back and study these old battles of 100,150 years ago, as well as much earlier, and I think it's very useful, very important.
Practise Listening to Words 词汇听力练习:
1.document [] n. 文件
2.defenselink （英特网上的）国防网址
3.panelist［］n. 小组委员会
4.timeframe 期间
5.Wall 在此指“柏林墙”
6.smart weapons 智能武器
7.Fort Irwin 欧文堡（美军基地名）
8.regiment [] n. （军队的）团
9.sensor [] n. 传感器
10.real time 实际时间
11.delicate [] adj. 精细的
12.inspection [] n. 检查
13.distract [] vt. 分散
14.budget [] n. 预算
15.quote [] n. 格言
16.versus [] prep. 与……相对
17.enumerate [ ] vt. 列举
18.West Point 西点（军校）
19.academy [] n. 学院，学术
military academy 军校
20.Civil War （美国）内战
【参考译文】
国防的转变
陈伯江:最近，我从英特网的国防网址上读到一些有关未来战争和美国国防发展的文件。其中给我留下深刻印象的文件之一，是国防小组委员会题为《国防的转变———21世纪的国家安全》的报告。我对访谈这一报告的作者很感兴趣。你是国防小组委员会的主席，我对今天有机会对你访谈感到荣幸。
《国防的转变———21世纪的国家安全》重点讨论了美国国防和国家安全所面临的长期问题。很明显，这一转变不可能在一夜间发生，你认为完成这一转变要多长时间？在你现在看来这一转变将要经历哪几个阶段？
奥迪恩:我认为这场转变将需15～20年的长时间。因为装备需要更新，设计和生产新装备的周期很长。我们已有许多现代装备，因它们非常昂贵，所以不能一下子全部更新。因此你得逐步更换，这就需要许多年。有些今天的装备仍将很有用，但部分装备在转变期间必须更新。
其次，这一转变要求军队跟上有关军事力量运用和作战的新概念的发展。这些新概念不是那种你能发明的东西。你必须思考它们，你必须进行实验，你必须进行演习，这也将需要许多年。
最后，人们必须以不同的方式进行思维。因此，新一代领导人崭露头角并进入领导岗位，今天的领导人退休和离开领导岗位，都将需要时间。对于今天的某些高级军官来说，要他们考虑以不同的方式做事是困难的。他们愿意以过去的方式做事。因而，你不仅必须更新装备和观念，你还必须更新人员。
所以，我认为完成这场转变需要15年，也许20年。随着时间的推移，你将会逐步看到这种变化。在过去的10年里，从柏林墙倒下前和沙漠风暴前至今，美国军队确实已经发生了相当巨大的变化。在智能武器方面有许多变化，通讯和计算机的运用方面有许多重大改进。去年在欧文堡进行的一系列陆军实验中，采取了新的方式运用电信和信息技术。所以说一直都存在着变化，但我认为在15或20年内将会发生更多的带根本性的变化。
陆军的结构将发生变化。陆军师行将消失，某种新的更小的建制单位将应运而生。但这需要一段时间。将会有旅或团、或某种更小的建制单位，并且大概更加联合——将会出现联合的编制。将会有空军和陆军、或海军陆战队和陆军合为一体的建制单位。
陈:根据国防小组委员会报告的分析，这次国防转变的目的是为了满足2020年美国的安全需要，涉及到国防的方方面面。在你看来，最重要的转变是什么？转变的过程将会遇到哪些困难？
奥迪恩:大概最困难的问题是人的问题——人的因素部分，使人们以不同的方式思考问题，使人们考虑以不同的方式使用武力，以不同的方式作战、以及采用不同的战术等等。随着这些变化，人们不仅要探索以不同的方式使用今天的武器，而且还会愿意接受这一事实:即新的种类各异的武器必然出现。大概最大的变化将是信息和信息技术领域的改进。来自各种传感器的情报信息可以迅速提供给正在天上飞行的飞行员、或坦克驾驶员、或正在进行武器发射的人员。因此，你可以利用信息优势，并立即使用信息。这与今天那种从收集信息、传递到指挥所、对信息进行分析和研究、最后传递到部队、需耗时数小时的方式截然不同。它将是非常快捷和实时的。
所以我认为最大的困难是要求人们以不同的方式思维和行动，以及考虑到将会出现的新问题。
陈:进行一场如你们的报告所述的国防转变将是非常复杂的，并需要统筹考虑近期挑战和长期挑战的平衡。你怎样看待这种平衡?或者换句话说，你认为怎样才能处理好近期挑战与长期挑战的关系?
奥迪恩:这是一个很好的问题。美国军队在新技术和新思维的投资方面所面临的困难，是他们对当前的作战卷入过多。我的意思是，我们有部队在波斯尼亚，我们有少量部队在非洲和其它地区。由于伊拉克武器核查问题，目前我们还有大量部队在中东，太多的部队卷入当前的作战，花费了资金和精力，推延了一些重要的、有用的投资。一些面向未来发展的新技术的投资本该现在就开始，但却比我们所希望的需要更长的时间。
今后，我们仍将要对中东、对伊拉克的形势给予较多地关注;还要对朝鲜和形势极不稳定的北朝鲜给予较多的关注。我相信你们也会非常关注。北朝鲜存在着各种严重的经济问题、食品短缺和庞大的军队，可能还存在着领导的问题。因此，美国军方很难做到不去关注这两个地区。加上波斯尼亚形势也极不稳定。我认为，美国军方分散了他们的资源、资金、预算和时间。他们的重点放在近期而非长期问题上。我认为这是主要问题。
陈:我注意到你的报告中引用了一些传统的格言，其中包括中国古代著名军事思想家孙子的名言。你怎样看待传统军事理论与现代军事理论、外国军事理论与本国军事理论的关系?
奥迪恩:我不是军事历史学家，但我有不少朋友是，他们经常引用孙子的格言。我认为，孙子所说的一些基本原理和思想在今天仍具有非常现实的意义。美国许多军事思想家都研究过去的历史。事实上，在西点军校，他们研究军事历史，他们研究过去诸如美国内战的历史。他们回顾过去，研究100年、150年前以及更早的战例。我认为这非常有用，非常重要。
