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【主讲人】Hrishikesh Hirway
音乐人、播客制作人、Netflix出品音乐纪录片《金曲大解密》（Song Exploder）主持人。该节目主要介绍歌曲的写作和制作过程。

【演讲主题】What you discover when you really listen
在谈话中就可以发现一个个“房间”，可以打开一扇扇“门”。每一次对话都有可能打开并揭示其中层层叠叠的秘密。
音乐人Hrishikesh Hirway介绍了进行深度谈话的方法，并探讨了当你停下来仔细聆听时你能学到什么。

【中英文稿】
I've been in love with music my whole life, both as a musician and as a listener. But as a listener, sometimes songs feel a little like houses to me, houses that you can only see from the street. You can stop and admire them from the outside. You can say, "Wow, look, the architecture is amazing. You might be able to get a little peek inside through one of the windows, but it's this thing of beauty that you have to appreciate from a distance because it's not yours.
我一生热爱音乐，不论是我创作的还是我听到的音乐。但是，作为一个听众，我有时会觉得歌曲就像是一座座房子，一座座只能从街上看到的房子。你可以停下脚步，从外面欣赏这些房子。你会说，“哇，瞧瞧，这个建筑简直令人叹为观止。”你也许可以透过窗户，向里面瞥上几眼，但是你只能从远处欣赏它的美，因为它并不为你所有。

And as a musician, when you put a song out into the world, it can sometimes feel like you're trapped in the backyard of this house that you built. There might be people looking at it, but you never get the chance to show them anything inside. Inside a song, there are all these parts that get imagined and written and recorded that are so full of thought and beauty, but only the people who've made the song ever get to hear those pieces on their own. All those pieces get smushed together in the final version that comes out.
作为一名音乐人，当你发布了一首歌，有时却会觉得像是被困在了自己盖的这所房子的后院里。也许有人在观望这所房子，但是，你没有机会向他们展示房子里有些什么。一首歌里包含了所有想象、创作和录制下来的东西，这些东西极富思想和美感，但是只有创作这首歌的人才能独自听到这些片段。所有这些片段都在最终版本中融合在了一起。

Whenever I put out a song, I was always a little sad that no one else was going to get to hear the things that I had heard when I was making it.
每当我推出一首歌，我就会感到些许悲伤，因为没有人能够听到我在创作时所听到的那些片段。

Let me show you what I mean. Here's a clip from a song of mine.
让我来解释一下我的意思，下面这个片段来自我创作的一首歌。

OK. What's your experience when you listen to that? You might like it, maybe, or you might hate it, or you might say, "I don't know, dude, it's 20 seconds of a song, what do you want from me?" Which is fair. What I hear is impossible to expect anyone else to hear. It's not just the cello part and the guitar part and the drum beat. It's also all the things that I lived through in order for that music to exist.
你在听到这些音乐时，有什么感受？你可能喜欢这段音乐，也可能讨厌它，你或许会说，“我太清楚，哥们儿，这首歌只有 20 秒，你想要我说什么？”确实是这样。我不可能指望别人，听到我所听到的东西，我指的不仅仅是大提琴演奏、吉他演奏或者鼓点，它还包括了，我为了创作出这部音乐而经历的一切。

So in 2014, I started a show to try and solve this distance between the creator and the audience. I interviewed musicians about one of their songs and then combined that with the different layers of music that make up that song. I thought this way an artist could bring a listener in and give them a guided tour of this house they made. They could point to the foundation and say, "This is how the song got started." And then as more and more layers get built on top, eventually the full song gets revealed. The show is called "Song Exploder." It's a pod --
所以 2014 年，我开始制作一档节目，试图消除创作者和观众之间的距离。我就音乐家们所创作的一首歌曲，对他们进行采访，然后将其与歌曲中不同层次的音乐相结合，这样就完成了歌曲的创作。我认为这样，艺术家就可以把听众请进来，带他们参观自己建造的这座房子。他们可以指着房子的地基说，“这首歌就是这样开始的。”然后，在上面加上越来越多的层次，最后就呈现出完整的歌曲。这个节目叫 《金曲大解密（Song Exploder）》。它是一个播客——

“Song Exploder” is a podcast, and it's also a TV show that I adapted for Netflix. And over the years, I've gotten to talk to some of the biggest musicians in the world about their work. People like Fleetwood Mac and U2, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Alicia Keys, Billie Eilish, The Roots and Yo-Yo Ma, and over 200 others.
《金曲大解密》是一个播客，也是我为网飞（Netflix）改编的电视节目。这些年来，我和世界上一些最大牌的音乐家聊过他们的作品。比如，佛利伍·麦克、U2、 林-曼努尔·米兰达、艾莉西亚·凯斯、比莉·艾利什、The Roots乐队、马友友和其他 200 位音乐家。

At first, I was really looking at those isolated pieces of music to do the work of revealing the inside of their respective houses. But as I was having conversations with them about their songs, something happened. I realized that there were rooms to be discovered in the conversations themselves, doors that could be opened. And I started to wonder: Could I try listening to people the way that I was trying to listen to music? Because when someone tells you something, just like with a song, there can be all these layers within it. There can be all this context that you're missing as the person out on the street, outside of the house.
起初，为了探索各自“屋子”的内部状况，我只关注音乐作品 但是，就在我与这些人谈论他们的歌曲时，事情开始不一样了。我意识到，在谈话中就可以发现一个个“房间”，可以打开一扇扇“门”。于是我开始想我是否可以试着用听音乐的方法去倾听别人的谈话？因为，当某人向你倾诉时，就如同一首歌，倾诉中包含了所有这些层次。里面全是你忽视的背景信息，你就像是街边站在房子外面的那个人。

So to get inside, I had to listen for those moments, those clues where there was more to be discovered, where there was something below the surface of what was first presented to me. So I borrowed from my music-listening brain, and now when I'm in a conversation, this is what I try to do. Be open to new ideas. Stop multitasking. Let the other person know that you're engaged, and do it without taking your focus away from them and turning it onto you.
所以，为了进入房子的内部， 我必须留意那些瞬间，注意倾听那些可以提供更多信息的线索， 这些线索暗示了，有些东西隐藏在最初呈现给我的表象之下。所以我借用了聆听音乐的头脑， 现在，我在谈话时，会尝试这样去做，以开放的心态对待新思想、保持专注，让对方知道你对谈话很投入，但是不要将焦点由对方转移到自己身上。

Because of making "Song Exploder," I now listen to a much wider range of music than I used to. When I was younger, I used to actually pride myself on my music snobbery. But nowadays, it just feels like I'm potentially cutting myself off from hearing some great ideas. And I think that's a prerequisite when it comes to listening to people, too. You have to go into it open-minded and curious and ready to learn something new.
由于制作《金曲大解密》的缘故，我现在听的音乐比从前要广泛许多。当我比现在年轻时，我曾为自己在音乐上的势利心而骄傲，但是如今，这感觉就像是我把自己隔绝了起来，可能听不到一些了不起的想法。我认为，就倾听他人意见而言，这也是先决条件。你必须以开放、好奇的心态深入其中，并且乐于学习新鲜事物。

Also, the instinct to multitask is so hard to turn off, but it's so important that you do it. You know, when you're listening to music these days, most of the time it's something that we do passively. It's in the background. It's the soundtrack to something else that we're doing. And I hate to say it, but between our phones and our smartwatches and just our own wandering thoughts, it's easy to get distracted, and we tend to listen to other people that way, too. But you can't really get immersed if that's the case. Imagine trying to listen to a song while singing a different song in your head. You can't do it or you can't do it well. And you can't fully appreciate what someone else is saying if you're thinking about something else.
还有，三心二意的天性虽然很难消除，但是做到这一点很重要。你知道，我们如今在大多数情况下，是在被动地听音乐。音乐只是背景音，是我们在做其他事情时的背景音乐。我并不想这么说，但是电话、智能手表，乃至漂浮不定的思绪，都很容易分散我们的注意力，我们往往也会以这样的方式倾听别人的谈话。但是，如果是这样的话，你就不可能真正地沉静其中。想象一下，试着听一首歌，同时在脑子里哼着另一首歌，你不大可能做得到，或者不可能做得很好。所以，你如果在想其他的事情，就不可能完全理解别人在说些什么。

I'm also a big believer in the power of nonverbal communication. Like, just the simple act of a nod is a way to let the other person know that you're engaged and also invites them to keep going and say more. That kind of intentional, engaged silence makes space for them.
我还坚信，非语言交流有着强大的力量。比如，通过点头这样一个简单的动作，你就可以让对方知道你投入到了交流之中，并且鼓励他们继续说下去。这种有意的、投入式的沉默，给了他们更多发挥的空间。

Sometimes, though, you do have to actually ask for more. You have to draw them out. But if you can ask for what's below the surface of what they just said, you might unlock some door for them and invite them to go through it with you. That also means turning off the instinct to talk about yourself. I used to think that this was actually the best way to show that I was really listening. Someone would tell me something and I'd say, “That reminds me of this thing that happened to me,” and then I would tell a whole story of my own. But it's kind of like listening to half a song and then saying, "Oh, you know, this part reminds me of this other song," and then turning that first song off and going and putting on some other song, which is also something I've done.
不过有时候，你确实需要询问更多信息，你需要这些信息把故事勾勒出来。不过，你要是直接问他们话中的深意，你可能就打开了他们的话匣子。他们便开始就你问的问题讲更多，这也意味着你要忍住，那种想要谈论自己的本能。我之前以为，这是显示我在认真听别人讲话最好的方式。当别人告诉我一些事，我就说：“这让我想到了 类似的发生在我身上的事。 然后我就开始讲我自己的故事，但是这就好像听了一半的歌。你说：“你知道吗？这让我想起了另一首歌。”然后关掉第一首歌，开始播放其他歌曲，这也是我做过的事情。

But you can't get deeper if you lose the moment like that. So it's a challenge to your impatience and to your selfishness to be engaged without making it about you.
如果你像这样浅尝辄止，你就无法深入，所以这对你的耐心，对你想谈论自己的自私心态，以及投入不涉及你的对话，都是一种挑战。

OK, and so now to ignore the advice about talking about yourself. I would like to talk about myself and tell you a little bit about me and that song that I played you a part of to hopefully illustrate what I'm talking about.
好的，那现在请你忽视掉，那些要你谈论自己的建议，现在我想谈谈我自己。告诉你们一些关于我的事，以及关于我刚刚为你们播放的歌曲，希望我能表述清楚，我想表达的内容。

Years ago, when I was making my first recordings, I would play my songs over and over and over again in my bedroom. My music career wasn't really something I could talk about with my parents. They were hardworking immigrants whose dream for me had been to become a doctor or a lawyer. But every now and then, I would hear my mom humming one of my songs just to herself in the kitchen. And that felt like some kind of unspoken approval. And over the years, whenever I would hear my mom humming one of my songs, it made me so happy.
几年前，我开始第一次录歌曲，我在我的房间一遍又一遍播放我的歌，我那时的音乐事业，并不是那种，我可以和我父母谈论的骄傲事业。他们是努力工作的移民，希望我将来能成为医生或者律师。但现在时不时，我听到我妈妈在哼我的歌，就一个人在厨房自己哼歌。那感觉就像某种不言而喻的认可。这些年来，每当我听到我妈妈哼我的歌，我就很开心。

Last fall, my mom passed away. And a few weeks after her funeral, I had a dream where I got to see her and talk to her and visit with her for a little bit. And I woke up filled with longing and sadness but also gratitude for this moment and this dream. And I ended up writing a song about it.
去年秋天，我妈妈去世了，在她葬礼几周后，我梦到了她，还在梦里和她说话，还和她四处转了转。当我醒来时，我整个人充斥着悲伤和对她的想念，还有感激。感谢这个梦让我又见到了妈妈。我最后把这个梦写成了一首歌。

(Sings) But it's so good to see you.
见到你真的很开心。

It's so good to see you, see you again.
见到你真的很开心， 再次见到你。

In the bridge, I stopped singing for a little bit and I just hummed a melody.
在这座桥上， 我没唱下去了，只是哼着旋律。

I was thinking about my mom, and I wanted to try and represent her in the music in some way.
我在想我的妈妈，想要将她以某种形式，展现在我的音乐里。

One of the people who I talked to about the song while I was making it was Yo-Yo Ma. I told him, this is what the song is about and this is what the music is supposed to do in this part. And I asked him, "Do you think that the cello could represent my mom's voice?" And he listened to everything that I said. And then he played those notes.
我曾和一个人讨论过这首歌，他就是马友友。我告诉他，这就是这首歌讲述的故事，这就是这部分音乐应该呈现的样子。我还问他，你认为大提琴的声音能够体现我妈妈的声音吗？他听完了我说的一切，然后演奏了这些音符。

OK. Here's everything together again.
好，这就是所有声音混在一起的样子。

So now, what's your experience when you listen to that from inside the house? Every conversation has the potential to open up and reveal all the layers and layers within it, all those rooms within rooms. And personally, I hope that I can keep looking for those ways in so I can experience the depth and the richness of someone else's ideas every chance I get to hear them.
所以现在，你在这个屋子里听到这一切的感受是怎么样的？每个对话中，都可能有更深层次的含义。里面一层又一层的深意，需要你揭开就像房间里还有的那些房间一样。就个人而言，我希望我可以继续寻找深入对话的方式。这样，在每一次倾听别人故事的时候，我就可以感受到内容的深度以及别人想法中的丰富性。

For now, thanks for listening to mine. Thank you.
此时此刻，我非常感谢 大家倾听了我的故事， 谢谢你们。

(Sings) You called out my name
你呼唤我的名字

“Bring me some water, my love”
“给我点水，亲爱的”

And it all felt the same
这感觉就像从前一样

As any other night of my life
像我生命中的 其他任何一个夜晚一样

We lived at home back then
那时我们住在家里

It still feels like home in my sleep
在梦里，仍然是像家一样的感觉

I woke to dark again
我睡到天黑醒来

For a moment
就这一会儿

It was you and me
只有你 和我

You're a piece of a dream now
你现在是梦的一部分

Just a little too far
只是有点太远了

I can still hear your voice through
我依然可以听到你的声音

The door left ajar
门还半开着

But can't see where you are
但是我看不到你在哪里

By the murmuring TV
伴着电视的声音

You'd fall asleep to in bed
你在床上睡着了

You sat and looked at me
你坐起来，看着我

I said I miss you
我说我想你了

You said,“I know”
你说：“我知道。”

The pictures that I've framed
我装裱的这些照片

Don't tell the stories in between
不是要讲述其中的故事

The moments that contain
照片里记录的时刻

Who you were really to me
代表着你对我的意义

You're a piece of a dream now
你现在是梦的一部分

Just a little too far
只是有点太远了

I can still hear your voice through
我依然可以听到你的声音

The door left ajar
门还半开着

I guess that's how it is now --
我猜这就是现在——

The only place you'll appear
你唯一会出现的地方

We'll have to meet in some shadow
我们不得不在阴影下见面

Between there and here
在那里和这里之间

Between there and here
在那里和这里之间

But it's so good to see you
但是，见到你真的很开心

It's so good to see you See you again
见到你真的很开心 再次见到你

You're a piece of a dream now
你现在是梦的一部分

Just a little too far
只是有点太远了

I can still hear your voice through
我依然可以听见你的声音

The door left ajar
门还半开着

I guess that's how it is now --
我猜，这就是现在——

The only place you'll appear
你唯一会出现的地方

We'll have to meet in some shadow
我们不得不在阴影中见面

Between there and here
在那里和这里之间

Between there and here
在那里和这里之间

Thank you.
谢谢大家