演讲MP3+双语文稿:隔离墙不能解决国家的边境问题
听力课堂TED音频栏目主要包括TED演讲的音频MP3及中英双语文稿，供各位英语爱好者学习使用。本文主要内容为演讲MP3+双语文稿:隔离墙不能解决国家的边境问题，希望你会喜欢！
【演讲者及介绍】Will Hurd
政治家-威尔·赫德（Will Hurd）议员在美国众议院代表得克萨斯州第23选区，为从圣安东尼奥到埃尔帕索的29个县和两个时区的选民服务。Will Hurd议员在美国众议院代表得克萨斯州第23选区，为从圣安东尼奥到埃尔帕索的29个县和两个时区的选民服务。
刑事司法改革家安妮·米尔格拉姆（Anne Milgram）致力于利用数据和分析技术来打击犯罪。
【演讲主题】隔离墙不能解决美国的边境问题
【中英文字幕】
翻译者Nan Yang 校对者Lipeng Chen
00:13
Anne Milgram: Congressman, I was about to introduce you and say a little more --
安妮·米尔格拉姆： 议员先生，接下来我会介绍你，然后说一些——
00:17
Will Hurd: Hey, Anne. How are you?
威尔·赫德： 嘿，安妮，你好吗？
00:19
AM: Hi, how are you doing? Thank you so much for joining us tonight. We're so lucky to have you here with us. I've already explained that you're actually in Washington because you're working. And I was about to tell folks that you represent the 23rd district of Texas. But maybe you could tell us a little bit about your district and describe it for us.
安妮：你好。非常感谢今晚你的参与。非常幸运今天能邀请到你。我已经跟大家解释过了 因为工作原因，你现在人在华盛顿。而且我正要告诉大家 你代表的是德克萨斯州的 23 区。也许你可以跟我们 多介绍一下 23 区，为我们描述一下吧。
00:40
WH: Sure, my district in Southwest Texas is 29 counties, two time zones, 820 miles of border from Eagle Pass, Texas all the way to El Paso. It takes 10 and a half hours to drive across my district at 80 miles an hour, which is the speed limit in most of the district. And I found out a couple of weekends ago, it's not the speed limit in all the district.
威尔：没问题，我代表的区在 德克萨斯西南部，包括 29 个县，跨越 2 个时区，从伊格尔帕斯市 一直到埃尔帕索市，沿着边境线共 820 英里。大部分地方的限速 是 80 英里每小时，穿越这个区需要 10 个半小时。然而我们几周前才发现，这并不是整个区的限速。
01:03
(Laughter)
（笑声）
01:04
It's a 71-percent Latino district, and it's the district that I've been representing for now my third term in Congress. And when you think about the issue of the border, I have more border than any other member of Congress. I spent nine and a half years as an undercover officer in the CIA, chasing bad people all across the country. So when it comes to securing our border, it's something I know a little bit about.
这里 71% 人口是拉丁裔，这个区是我在国会的第三任期 所代表的区。当你们想到边境问题时，我比其它国会议员 拥有更多的边境区域。我曾花了 9 年半时间以 CIA （中央情报局） 卧底的身份 在全国各处追捕坏人。所以当要来保卫边境时，我对此方面了解得非常少。
01:31
AM: One of the things I learned recently which I hadn't known before is that your district is actually the size, I think, of the state of Georgia?
安妮：我最近才知道的一件事情是 你这个区的占地大小，我想 跟整个佐治亚州差不多？
01:41
WH: That's right. It's larger than 26 states, roughly the size of the state of Georgia. So it's pretty big.
威尔：对的。它比 26 个州的面积大，基本上等于佐治亚州的大小。所以它很大。
01:48
AM: So as an expert in national security and as a member of Congress, you've been called upon to think about issues related to immigration, and in recent years, particularly about the border wall. What is your reaction to President Trump's statement that we need a big, beautiful wall that would stretch across our border, and at 18 to 30 feet high?
安妮：你作为国家安全方面的专家 和国会议员之一，曾经被要求去考虑 移民相关的问题，特别是最近几年的边境墙问题。你对于特朗普总统的声明—— 我们需要在边境建造巨大、美观、 高度在 18 到 30 英尺的墙，有什么看法？
02:12
WH: I've been saying this since I first ran for Congress back in 2009, this is not a new topic, that building a 30-foot-high concrete structure from sea to shining sea is the most expensive and least effective way to do border security. There are parts of the border where Border Patrol's response time to a threat is measured in hours to days. If your response time is measured in hours to days, then a wall is not a physical barrier. We should be having technology along the border, we should have operation control of our border, which means we know everything that's going back and forth across it. We can do a lot of that with technology. We also need more folks within our border patrol. But in addition to doing all this, one of the things we should be able to do is streamline legal immigration. If you're going to be a productive member of our society, let's get you here as quickly as possible, but let's do it legally. And if we're able to streamline that, then you're going to see some of the pressures relieved along our border and allow men and women in Border Patrol to focus on human trafficking and drug-trafficking organizations as well.
威尔：其实我在 2009 年 竞选国会议员时就说过这件事，这并不是一个新的议题，从东海岸到西海岸建造一个 30 英尺高的混凝土结构建筑 是一种对保卫边境安全最昂贵 又最无效的方法。在部分边境，边境巡逻队对威胁的响应时间 以小时或天计算。如果响应时间如此之长，那么这个墙并不是物理上的屏障。我们需要沿着边境应用一些技术，需要有对边境的行动控制，意味着我们需要了解 从边境来回穿越的所有东西。我们可以利用技术做很多事情，我们也需要边境巡逻队 引入更多人员。但是除了做这些，我们还需要做的事情之一 是简化合法移民入境流程。如果你会成为我们社会中 有生产力的一员，我们会尽快让你移民到这里，而且得通过合法途径。如果我们能够简化 合法移民入境流程，你们会看见我们边境压力被缓解，而且会让边境巡逻队更专注于 人口贩卖和贩毒组织。
03:23
AM: Congressman, there's also been a conversation nationally about using emergency funds to build the border wall and taking those funds from the United States military. What has your position been on that issue?
安妮： 议员先生，全国范围内还有一种讨论，关于使用紧急资金 和来自美国军方的资金 建造边境墙。你在这个问题上持何立场？
03:39
WH: I'm one of the few Republicans up here that has opposed that effort. We are just now rebuilding our military, and taking funds away from making sure that our brothers and sisters, our wives and our husbands have the training and equipment they need in order to take care of us in far-flung places -- taking money away from them is not an efficient use of our resources, especially if it's going to build a ... you know, I always say it's a fourth-century solution to a 21st-century problem. And the reality is, what we should be focusing on is some of the other root causes of this problem, and many of your speakers today have talked about that. Some of those key root problems are violence, lack of economic opportunity and extreme poverty, specifically, in the Northern Triangle: El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras. We should be working --
威尔：我是对此持反对意见的 少数共和党人之一。我们现在正在重建我们的军队，需要资金来确保 我们的兄弟姐妹，我们的妻子或丈夫 得到他们所需的培训和装备，来在遥远的地方保护我们，从他们那拿走资金并不是 使用资源的有效方式，特别是当为了建造一个—— 我把这个形容为四世纪的解决方案，不是二十一世纪的。实际上，我们应该关注的是 这个问题的某些根本原因，如今很多发言人都讲到了这个。一些关键的根本问题包括 暴力行为，就业机会的匮乏 和极端的贫穷，特别是在北三角形： 萨尔瓦多、危地马拉和洪都拉斯。我们应该努力——
04:39
AM: I was going to ask what you would recommend United States government does to address the underlying, what we call push factors, or root causes in those three countries in Central America?
安妮：我是打算问你，你会建议 美国政府如何解决 这三个中美洲国家的底层问题，也就是我们所说的 推动因素或者根本原因的？
04:50
WH: One of the things I learned as an undercover officer in the CIA is be nice with nice guys and tough with tough guys. And one of the principles of being nice with nice guys is to strengthen our alliances. We have a number of programs currently in these three countries that USAID and the State Department is doing to address this violence issue. And we know, in El Salvador, one of the problems was that the police were corrupt. And so we've worked with the Salvadorians to purge the police, rehire new folks, use community policing tactics. These are tactics the men and women in the United States of America and police forces use every single day. And when we did this in certain communities, guess what happened? We saw a decrease in the violence that was happening in those communities. And then we also saw a decrease in the number of people that were leaving those areas to try to come to the United States illegally. So it's a fraction of the cost to solve a problem there, before it ultimately reaches our border. And one of the reasons that you have violence and crime is political corruption and the lack of central governments to protect its citizens. And so this is something we should be continuing to work on. We shouldn't be decreasing the amount of money that we have that we're sending to these countries. I actually think we should be increasing it. I believe the first thing -- we should have done this months ago -- is select a special representative for the Northern Triangle. That's a senior diplomat that's going to work to make sure we're using all of our levers of power to help these three countries, and then that we're doing it in a coordinated effort. This is not just a problem for the United States and Mexico, this is a problem for the entire western hemisphere. So, where is the Organization of American States? Where is the International Development Bank? We should be having a collective plan to address these root causes.
威尔：在我做卧底的时候 我学到的东西之一就是 对好人友好，对野蛮人强硬。而对好人友好的原则之一是 要加强我们的联盟。现在在这三个国家 我们有很多项目，USAID（美国国际开发署）和国务院 正在致力于解决暴力问题。正如我们所知，在萨尔瓦多，问题之一是警察腐败。所以我们正与萨尔瓦多人 一起清理警队，雇佣新人，施行社区警务策略。这些策略是美国的男男女女 和警察部队 每天使用的。当我们在某些社区实行时，猜猜发生了什么？ 我们在这些社区看见了 暴力的减少。而且之后我们也看见了 那些曾试图离开那块地方 并想非法进入美国的人数在减少。所以这是在最终 到达我们的边界之前，解决问题的成本的一部分。而有暴力和犯罪问题的原因之一 就是警察腐败 和缺少中央政府对公民的保护。所以我们应该继续进行下去。我们不应该减少我们正在运送到 这些国家的资金数量。实际上我认为 我们应该提高资金量。我相信，在几个月前 我们就应该做的第一件事 就是为北三角区 选择一位特别的代表。一位高级外交官，可以确保我们使用所有级别的能力 帮助这三个国家，然后我们再结合全体的力量进行。这不只是美国和墨西哥的问题，这是整个西半球的问题。所以，美洲国家组织在哪里？ 国际发展银行在哪里？ 我们应该有一个集体计划 来解决这些根本原因。
06:50
And when you talk about violence, a lot of times, we talk about these terrible gangs like MS-13. But it's also violence like women being beaten by their husbands. And they have nobody else to go to, and they are unable to deal with this current problem. So these are the types of issues that we should be increasing our diplomacy, increasing our economic development aid.
而当我们谈论暴力，很多时候，我们讨论的是 那些可怕的帮派，例如 MS-13. 但是这也包括像 妇女被丈夫家暴。而且她们没有其它地方可去，她们无法解决当前的问题。所以对于这类问题，我们应该增强我们的外交，提高我们的经济发展援助。
07:17
AM: Please, I want to take you now from thinking about the root causes in Central America to thinking about the separation of children and families in the United States. Starting in April 2018, the Trump administration began a no-tolerance policy for immigrants, people seeking refugee status, asylum in the United States. And that led to the separation of 2,700 children in the first year that that program was run. Now, I want to address this with you, and I want to separate it up front into two different conversations. One of the things that the administration did was file legal court papers, saying that one of the primary purposes of the separations was to act as a deterrent against people coming to the United States. And I want to talk for a moment about that from a moral perspective and to get your views.
安妮：我现在想带你 从思考中美洲的根本原因转移到 思考在美国出现的 儿童与家人分离的问题。自 2018 年四月份起，特朗普政府开始对在美国 寻求难民身份庇护的移民人员 发起了一个零容忍策略。这个程序实行的第一年就导致了 2700 个儿童与家人的分离。现在，我想和你谈谈这个，而且我想把这个分成 两个不同的对话。政府做的事情之一 是提交了合法法庭文件，阐述这些分离的主要目的之一 是为了对来美国的人们 起威慑作用。我想花点时间 从道德的角度聊一下，然后了解你的意见。
08:14
WH: We shouldn't be doing it, period. It's real simple. And guess what, it wasn't a deterrent. You only saw an increase in the amount of illegal immigration. And when you're sitting, debating a strategy, if somebody comes up with the idea of snatching a child out of their mother's arms, you need to go back to the drawing board. This is not what the United States of America stands for, this is not a Republican or a Democrat or independent thing. This is a human decency thing. And so, using that strategy, it didn't achieve the ultimate purpose. And ultimately, the amount of research that is done and the impact that the detention of children has -- especially if it's over 21 days -- has on their development and their future is disastrous. So we shouldn't be trying to detain children for any more than 21 days, and we should be getting children, if they're in our custody, we should be taking care of them humanely, and making sure they're with people that can provide them a safe and loving environment.
威尔：我们不应该这样做，就这样，非常简单。你们猜怎么着，那并不是威慑。非法移民数量反而在增多。当我们坐着讨论策略时，如果某个人提出 把孩子从母亲怀抱中夺走的想法，你们应该回到最初重新开始。这种想法不是美国所代表的，也不是共和党、民主党 或独立党的东西。这事关人类尊严。所以，实行那个策略，并没有实现最终的目的。而最终，许多研究证明，孩子的拘禁， 尤其是超过 21 天的拘禁，对于他们的成长和未来 所造成的影响 是灾难性的。所以我们不应该尝试 扣留孩子超过 21 天，我们不应该去扣留，如果他们在我们的监护下，我们应该人道的照顾他们，确保他们跟可以为他们 提供有安全环境的人呆在一起。
09:21
AM: I would challenge you even on the 21-day number, but for the purposes of this conversation, I want to follow up on something you just said, which is both that it's wrong to detain children, and that it's not effective. So the question, then, is why does the administration continue to do it, when we've seen 900 additional children separated from their parents since the summer of 2018? Why is this happening?
安妮：我甚至想质疑 你 21 天这个数字，但是为了这个谈话的目的，我想继续追问一些你刚刚说的，就是扣留孩子既是错误的，也是无效的。所以问题是，为什么政府继续这样做，自 2018 年夏季我们看见了 又有 900 个孩子 离开了他们的父母？ 为什么还在发生？
09:46
WH: Well, that's something that you'd have to ultimately ask the administration. These are questions that I've been asking. The Tornillo facility is in my district. These are buildings that are not designed to hold anybody for multiple days, let alone children. We should be making sure that if they are in our custody -- a lot of times for the uncompanied children, we don't have a ... we don't know of a patron or a family member in the United States, and we should make sure that they're in facilities where they're able to go to school and have proper food and health care. And if we're able to find a sponsor or family member, let's get them into that custody, while they're waiting for their immigration court case. That's the other issue here. When you have a backlog of cases -- I think it's now 900,000 cases that are backlogged -- we should be able to do an immigration hearing within nine months. I think most of the legal community thinks that is enough time to do something like this, so that we can facilitate whether someone, an individual, is able to stay in the United States or they're going to have to be returned back to their home country, rather than being in this limbo for five years.
威尔：这是你最终需要 问政府的事。这些问题我也一直在问。托尼洛设施（扣留移民人员的场所） 就在我的辖区。这些建筑不是设计来容纳任何人 很多天的，更别说孩子了。我们应该确保，如果他们在我们的监护下—— 对于无人陪伴的孩子，有很多次 我们没有 …… 我们不知道他们任何在美国的 资助人或者家庭成员，而且我们需要确保 在那里的孩子 能够去学校，有适当的食物和医疗保健。如果我们能为他们找到 一个资助人或者家庭成员，我们会让他们等待 移民案子的同时对孩子进行监护。这里我们又有了另一个问题。当我们有案件积压—— 我想现在有 90 万件案子积压—— 我们应该可以在九个月内 进行一个移民听证。我认为大部分的法律界人士 觉得这段时间足够 去做这样的事情，这样我们能够促成一个人 是留在美国 或者被遣返回自己的国家的决定，而不需要在这个地方待五年。
11:06
AM: If we think about the asylum system today, where people are coming and saying that they have a credible threat, that they will be persecuted back home, and we think about the fact that on average, it's about two years for someone to get an asylum hearing, that many people are not represented as they go through that process, it makes me think about something that they say in the health care space all the time, which is that every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets. And so as you think about this and think about how we would redesign this system to not do what we're doing, which is years and years of detention and separations and hardship for people seeking -- and again, asylum being a lawful United States government process -- for people seeking to enter our country lawfully. What should we do?
安妮：如果我们考虑 现在的庇护系统，当人们来到这儿说 他们正面对可信的威胁，也就是他们将被遣送回家，从事实上考虑，平均需要等待两年 才能进行庇护听证会，很多人因为要经过那个流程 而无法出现，这让我思考 人们一直说到的医疗保健领域，每一个系统都是为了 它所要得到的结果 而设计的。所以当你考虑 我们要如何重新设计这个系统，不再做现在我们做的事情，就是年复一年的 扣押、分离、痛苦，当了人们寻找—— 重申一下，需求庇护是 合法的美国政府流程—— 为了人们寻找机会 合法进入我们的国家。我们应该做什么？
11:57
WH: I tried to increase by four billion dollars the amount of resources that HHS has in order to specifically deal, ultimately, with children. I think we need more immigration judges in order to process these cases, and I think we need to ensure that folks can get representation. I've been able to work with a number of lawyers up and down the border to make sure they are being able to get access to the folks that are having these problems. And so this is something that we should be able to design. And ultimately, when it comes to children, we should be doing everything we can when they're in our custody, in order to take care of them.
威尔：我试过将 美国卫生及公共服务部资金 提高 40 亿美元，来特别为孩子服务。我认为我们需要更多的移民法官 来处理这些案子，而且我认为我们需要确保 他们能够得到法律代表。我一直在和一些律师 在边境内外工作，确保他们可以接触到 那些有这些问题的人。所以这些事情是 我们应该可以设计的。最终，当涉及孩子时，我们可以在监护他们的时候，尽一切可能 照顾他们。
12:41
AM: So I have two more questions for you before I'm going to let you go back to work. The first is about our focus in the United States on the questions of immigration. Because if you look at some of the statistics, you see that of people who are undocumented in the United States, the majority of people have overstayed on visas, they haven't come through the border. If you look at the people who try to enter the country who are on the terrorist watch list, they enter overwhelmingly through the airports and not through the border. If we look at drugs coming into the United States, which has been a huge part of this conversation, the vast majority of those drugs come through our ports and through other points of entry, not through backpacks on people crossing the border. So the thing I always ask and I always worry about with government, is that we focus so much on one thing, and my question for you is whether we are focused in this conversation nationally about the border, every day and every minute of every day, whether we're looking completely in the wrong direction.
安妮：在让你回去工作之前 我还有两个问题要问你。第一是关于移民问题，美国人的关注点。因为如果你看一些数据，会看见那些在美国的 无证移民，大部分都是签证过期逗留，而不是从边境过来的。如果你看那些 在恐怖分子监视名单上，试图进入美国的人，他们绝大部分是从机场进入的，而不是从边境。如果我们看看今天讨论的 一个主要部分，进入美国的毒品，大部分的毒品从港口 和其它入口进入，而不是由穿越边境的人 藏在背包里带来。所以我一直问的，也是我对于政府感到担忧的，是我们过多关注在一件事上。我的问题是，在全国范围内，我们时时刻刻 都在谈论边境问题，是不是我们完全选错了方向？
13:46
WH: I would agree with your premise. When you have -- let's start with the economic benefits. When you have 3.6 percent unemployment, what does that mean? That means you need folks in every industry, whether it's agriculture or artificial intelligence. So why aren't we streamlining legal immigration? We should be able to make this market based in order to have folks come in and be productive members of our society. When it comes to the drug issue you're talking about, yes, it's in our ports of entry, but it's also coming in to our shores. Coast Guard is only able to action 25 percent of the known intelligence they have on drugs coming into our country. The metric that we should be measuring [is] are we seeing a decrease of deaths from overdose from drugs overseas, are we seeing a decrease in illegal immigration? It's not how many miles of fencing that we have ultimately built. And so we have benefited from the brain drain of every other country for the last couple of decades. I want to see that continue, and I want to see that continue with the hardworking drain. And I can sell you this: at last Congress, Pete Aguilar, a Democrat from California, and I had a piece of legislation called the USA Act: strong border security, streamline legal immigration, fix DACA -- 1.2 million kids who have only known the United States of America as their home -- these kids, or I should say young men and women, they are already Americans, let's not have them go through any more uncertainty and make that ultimately happen. We had 245 people that were willing to sign this bill into law, it wasn't allowed to come forward under a Republican speaker, and also the current Democratic speaker hasn't brought this bill through in something that we would be able to pass.
威尔：我同意你的前提。当你—— 让我从经济利益说起。当你有 3.6% 的失业率，意味着什么？ 这意味着每个行业都需要人，无论是农业还是人工智能。所以为什么我们 不简化合法移民的流程？ 我们应该将让它顺应市场需求，鼓励人们来到这儿，成为我们社会里有生产力的一员。当说到我们讨论的毒品问题，是的，毒品是从入境口岸来的，但是也有些来自我们的海岸。海岸警卫队只能 对进入我们国家的毒品里 已知情报的 25% 进行针对性的行动。我们应该衡量的指标 是我们看见因为服用海外毒品 致死的人数的减少，是我们看见非法移民的减少，不是我们最终建了多长的篱笆。而且在过去几十年 我们已经从其它国家的人才流失 受益。我想看到这个趋势继续下去，我也想看到辛苦工作的人 源源不断的来到美国。而且我可以告诉你们： 在上一次国会会议上，来自加州的 民主党人皮特·阿吉拉尔，和我 提出了一项立法，称为: 美国法——更强的边境安全，简化合法移民流程，修复《儿童入境暂缓计划》—— 120万已经只把美国当作家的 孩子们，或者我应该说年轻的男孩和女孩，他们已经是美国人，我们不要让他们再经历不确定性，不要让那发生。我们有 245 人已经愿意 将这个法案签署进法律中，但这个无法在共和党 发言人的言辞中出现，而且现在民主党发言人也没有 将这个法案带入到可能通过的地方。
15:35
